French Riots: What the anti-Muslim blogs are saying
Having a look at blogs this morning I was shocked by the strong anti-Muslim sentiment these French riots are helping to support and inflame in certain people, particularly on the other side of the pond.I'm all for healthy debate but there are plenty of people out there who seem to be relying on prejudice and stereotype to support their views.
I wonder how many Muslims these people know, personally.
If you want to see for yourself, start here and here. They link to other blogs with similar views. You'll soon get the picture.
posted by Becca @ 9:45 am
27 Comments:
For a reassuringly lucid view see Le Monde dated today (so published yesterday) the article by Sylvie Kauffmann: France, EU, modeles contestes http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0,36-707762,0.html
Bassizzzt you are more than welcome.
Afraid I don't have the foggiest who Rachel Corrie is, but I have a feeling I'd agree with her...
Becca,
I see my link here. I suppose a thank-you is in order, although I'd more properly term my blog an anti-Islamism blog. To each his own label, I suppose.
I wonder how many Muslims these people know, personally.
As a foreign-language major, quite a few. In fact, one is a sheikh in the UAE; when he lived here in the United States, he had a key to my house, and I to his.
I'm all for healthy debate but... speaks for itself.
The blogosphere is an open forum, and you are entitled to your views, of course.
AOW, can you explain to me the difference between an anti-Islamist blog and an anti-Muslim blog and why you believe one is a more valid position to take than the other? The way I see it, they both take a particular standpoint against a group of people based on religion.
What does your sheikh friend think of your blog?
I welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue with people of different opinions. The point I was making is that I have more respect for arguments based on fact than those based on prejudice or hate.
Ok Bassizzzt, I'll take your question.
The origin of your prejudice and hate has one cause, as you explained in your email. But to me it has its source elsewhere.
I think people are irrationally scared of the way the world is today. Terrorism causes terror (obviously), and this terror causes those who feel themselves to be the victims to flail about trying to pinpoint the enemy. The enemy is notoriously difficult to isolate so labels are appointed and vast swathes of innocent people are labelled, because they are perceived to have a certain thing in common with the perceived enemy.
Your 'enemy' is made up of terrorists, not Muslims. If you fight hate with hate, you get a whole lot of hate. If you try and pinpoint the cause of the hate and figure out a way of addressing it, THEN we might get somewhere.
I see we are getting into theology, or something here. I am constantly amazed about this 'clash of civilisations’ idea.
I do not believe that the Paris riots were religiously motivated. And I do not think that people who think that prostitutes and adulterers should be stoned, gays have their heads cut off, and women not allowed to drive motor cars a threat to us.
That way of thinking is not a threat to ‘our’ way of life. The problem with the West is, is that the West doesn’t seem to be confident any more in the real gains it has achieved over the centuries.
So who can blame alienated kids turning to moral absolutes in other cultures…like Islam - or, in Poland, fundamentalist Catholicism. .
"Once the enemy is dead, another one comes up. Notice how the Soviet empire fell and all of a sudden we had a new one to worry about?"
Notice how the President is a lot more popular when he's fighting an enemy? To bolster domestic fear and paranoia against a perceived terrible enemy is a basic tactic of Single Party States, both in fiction and in history.
"If the Paris riots were not religiously motivated, then why are Muslim clerics driving home the idea to hate the west and the "great satan" USA?"
Would it not be more correct to say that clerics are using the riots as a tool to preach their message? Fundamentalist Christians do the same. Use the issues and events of the day seen from the point of view of your platform, and you will attract many new followers. I think you're mixing up cause with effect.
"Why is it that 100% of the rioters of Paris were Muslim?"
What? Where did you get that from? I'd be very interested to see a source, because I find that very hard to believe. The rioters are first and foremost from poor areas. Many are immigrants, and many are muslims or have muslim roots. That does not mean the roots of the discontent of this disparate group of people lies in Islam, although I can see when Islam is seen as an advancing, united horde (as communism was) that this is an easy conclusion to reach.
See what you think of this: http://tehnetwork.gotdns.org/~hamish/index.php?post=1131573150
This debate is pretty much the crux of the issue.
"Take a look at Britain, Germany, France, and observe how much they have come against the United States over the past ten years."
I would argue the people of these countries have not come against the US, but against a government that chooses to act in the way this administration has. Rejecting Kyoto, promoting fundamentalist ideas and unilateral international action are all unpopular because they fly in the face of what people from these countries, in general, believe.
I am genuinely very interested to why you think these things, and very grateful you choose to discuss this when you know this audience is bound to disagree with you.
Bassizzt, you are wrong in so many ways and your thinking is typical of those americans whose memory does not stetch before the 11th of September 2001.
There are strong parallels with the Sydney and LA riots. All the same signs are there: perceptions of police brutality, a dissatisfied minority, institutionalised racism, a flashpoint event. Once they've vented, had their fill of violence, everyone gets bored and goes home. This is already happening in France - the areas where the rioting started are basically back to normal. These are not signs of an organised Islamic uprising.
Yes, the rioters are predominately Muslim, much like the LA rioters were predominantly black and Sydney's were aboriginal. But attributing the cause of France's riots to Islam is ignoring the lessons that history has taught us time and again: happy, empowered, employed people don't start riots.
The definition of Terrorism is "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." If we look merely to South America and the actions of the US govt then the US is undoubtly a terrorist state by this definition. Need I remind you that Saddam, Pinochet, Osama Bin Laden, the Kmer Rouge etc were all installed by the United States?
Yes there is anti-american sentiment. Are you surprised?
Bill, thanks for taking the time to visit my site and add your notes to the discussion.
Let's start with my 'telling' question. I was honestly interested how many Muslims people running sites such as those I linked to know. That's why I visited those sites and left comments (which then led to people getting their knickers in a twist and name calling and no advancement on either side pesuading the other of their point of view).
My starting point was the Paris riots. If you go to the discussions which Edd quoted the link to above, you may be interested in the various points of view discussed. I am worried the Paris riots, which were certainly exploited by Muslim extremists, are being used to support arguments that miss the point.
I'm very glad you have a Muslim family you count as close friends. I'm happy when any groups of people from different cultures mix. I too have friends from many countries and cultures across the world.
I object to you saying I have labelled you 'all kinds of vicious politically incorrect slurs'. I have not.
Feel free to post the links here.
how wmany polacks does it take to change a lightbulb? tell us we won't let the americans know. how many polacks does it take to get you off sexually?
Bill, I've already said on another blog comments section that this isn't an economic issue. It's a social issue.
And again, not ALL the the rioters are Muslims. It's just not true, however many times you say it. Edd has explained mixing up cause and effect above, which answers your question about the Muslim extremists who are involved.
Check it out: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1641413,00.html
Well, that's just another area where we disagree Bill. I don't think Chirac has addressed their social issues.
The roots of the problem go back a long way and it's going to take a long time to convince people who have been ignored most of their lives that they are now being taken seriously. Of course, if half of them get deported from France the French government is just ignoring the problem and creating others.
Oh, and do you have any comments on the molotov cocktail attacks on two mosques in Paris yesterday?
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article326882.ece
I'm impressed by your tenacity Bill.
I think though that we're talking past each other somewhat. I think we can both agree this is not a simple money issue. You think religion, I think societal problems leading to alienation and frustration. Ok, there we disagree.
I'd put another perspective in for consideration on the objects that were burned.
Cars and buses: there must be a certain satisfaction to be had if you want to damage something in throwing a petrol bomb into something that goes up in flames quickly and with relatively little fuss. If you get the petrol tank it gives you a big bang too.
Churches, synagogues, mosques, schools, sports centres, and so on: These are buildings that are important to local communities but do not have round-the-clock security. They are soft targets that will be highly visible. If you want to attribute a symbolic reason, schools are the places where big changes have to happen in order for these youths to change their position in society.
The reason banks and government buildings have been left relatively unscathed could be firstly because they are not to be found in these areas, secondly because they are generally protected by security and thirdly because they are less easy to destroy.
There are multiple interpretations. I think we could agree to disagree on this one.
"Time is always a very fine explanation of events that we sometimes misread - you, me, or anyone else."
Wow! I actually agree with you!
How unexpected.
I third that sentence.
What a civilised ending to a surprisingly civilised exchange of opposite opinions. Nice one.
Someone once said, "Live by the sword, die by the sword." This is the point that needs to be driven into the head of every Muslim. If you continue this fruitless "jihad" against the world, you will be asigned to the ash heap of history. I don't realy care how your religon self-destructs. The pointis, if you continue to defy God, you will reap what you sow. May God continue to have mercy on all of our souls. Jesus is the Truth, Way, and Light. Come quickly Lord Jesus.
Hello all,
I just wanna say that lets not dwell on the little things. we should instead ask ourselves how we are contributing to world peace or the violence that has besieged all the world.
the question is what can i do to make the world a better place than i found it? how am i contributing to the endless cycle of despair and destruction?
well, ladies and gentlemen i have the answer for you. i am responsible for world peace. you are responsible for world peace and if i do my part and you do your part then peace and happiness is possible.
before you respond, i wanna you to just remember that most people are harmed or killed by their "own" kind. for example black on black crime is the highest crime in america, somali against somali, iraqis against iraqi, whites on white, and so on. the whole religious or thnic cleavges are just the tools the war mongers and politician use to gain their own ends. i am somali and there is nobody who has killed more somalis than somali warlords. so the point is for me and you to do our part and stop the violence one person at a time. I don't know about you, but i am gonna try to do my part and save my fellow human beings before i classify them white or black, palestinian or jewish, or muslim or chrisitian.
I can never think of dave toub as a jew, or mike laskey as white boy, instead i think of them as people like me. i borrow a pen from them when i need a pen and if at any time i disagree or have problem with them, then i like to deal with them as people instead of saying a jew or a white boy did something bad to me. lets treat every person according to their actions instead of their origins or group.
we can sit here behind our monitor and type hateful words, but that is just fuel for more bloodshed. so, instead lets follow ghandi's words of wisdom and each of us should be the change we want to see in the world.
I pray for peace for all of us. ameen(amen)
salaam(peace)
And what is wrong with being anti-Islam? Islam is an ideology that teaches hate, violence and oppression.
What is wrong with criticizing people that riot, destroy, plunder and kill? These "youths" (better known as Muslims) are just doing what their religion teaches.
This is Islam in action. These people are just doing what their dear prophet did 13oo years ago.
(or maybe the hate and violence against non-muslims in the Quran means nothing. Or maybe the 29 raids that Islam's dear prophet went out on to kill, capture, enslave, plunder, torture and rape infidels also mean nothing?) Read the hadith. Read Tabari, Hisham and Kathir. Read the Quran and Islam's own early works. Nothing has changed. Look at the state of Islamic societies. Now Muslim immigrants are bringing their hate and violence to the west.
Of course, Muslims blame others. It is always the fault of the infidels. Muslims reject Western society and then complain about being rejected.
I have nothing but contempt for Islam and its followers. They are not honest. Everywhere they go they take hate, destruction, violence and oppression with them.
Pathetic.
J Kactuz
PS: It will get worse and it will spread to other countries.
With the Muslim community taking a stand against the extremists, it does show that most true Muslim believers are for peace and the terrorists are simply attempting to justify their self-indulgent narcissism at the cost of innocent victims.
Very good points on both sides. Hmm. What we all can probably agree on on is that Islam is horrible religion and those who are forced into it are poor souls who will eventually rot in hell.
I speak Arabic, have read the Quaran and the Bible, lived in NYC and know people from all backgrounds, colors, races and religions. It's foolish to believe that all religions are good and loving. Hindus=Good. Christians=Good. Jews=Good. Of the thousands of religions of the world, one thing is for sure: There is at least one really evil one out there...Guess which one? You got it. Islam=Bad.
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